ZoNATION: Gotcha! Now I’m Gonna Pray the Gay Outta You!

Zo reminds the republican party of a characteristic that distinguishes the nature of their platform from democrats. He also defends Christian conservatism from attacks by liberals who claim these beliefs are bigoted against homosexuals. Hear more in this ZoNation!

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  • Karen Silin

    very well spoken & great video, God bless you Zo !

  • Did any one notice besides me that when you see a homophobic rant 9 times out of 10 it is a liberal.

  • Matt W

    Keep it up Zo! God Bless!

  • hollywoodron

    Ahhhh shumm… wish pastors would preach like this!

  • Frank Visone

    stumbled upon your stuff yesterday, and I am so glad I did. The fact that you use FACTS rather than emotion to back up every argument/point you make is enough to get my attention. but you make it entertaining on top of it. Safe to say, you’re going places my friend. keep it up!!!

  • Fogged

    Another great one Zo. Love your book also. Tons of great topical points in it.

  • Bev Wafford Morris

    Thank you, Zo. You put into words exactly how I feel about the whole issue of homosexuality. I see it in the same light as I see someone smoking pot, even in the areas where smoking pot is legal.

    Even if it’s legal, I still don’t approve of it. I think it’s unhealthy. I’m going to discourage my children from trying it. You do what you want to do, but don’t force me to praise your lifestyle choices. I’m not going to say it’s okay, because it’s not to me.

    Of course, I’m weirdly libertarian on this particular subject. The government should not be involved in marriage period. It is a religious ceremony, and if you want to have such a ceremony, have at it. Gay or straight, just don’t ask the state to recognize your personal commitment. That’s like asking the state to recognize your relationship with your best friend. Pointless.

    • djtmetz

      Your points are well stated and valid, but marriage is a little bit more than simply a statement of love between two parties. It is the basis for forming family units. Human experience has shown that the presence of both a father and a mother in the household is important to a child’s development, so it is in society’s interest that there be some organization that adjudicates over some system of family law that gives incentives to young people to marry and stay faithful. Such a system would also manage inheritance, wills, and so on.

      Even better than having government hold this role would be for a church authority that is broadly recognized to manage such matters, as was common in England prior to Henry VIII’s break with the Catholic church, for example. I’m not sure how such a body could be formed from disparate churches as we have now, and having such an organization per religion would also force us to allow muslims to have sharia courts to adjudicate over their family law (which I would find morally reprehensible, personally)… so you see why having a somewhat secular body like gov’t / common law handle it made sense…

    • S H B

      http://manhattandeclaration.org/

      Because the sanctity of human life, the dignity of marriage as a union of husband and wife, and the freedom of religion are foundational principles of justice and the common good, we affirm:
      1. The profound, inherent, and equal dignity of every human life
      2. Marriage as a union of one man and one woman
      3. Religious liberty and the inherent freedom of human beings
      As Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical Christians, we take seriously the Biblical admonition to respect and obey those in authority. Because we honor justice and the common good, we will fully and ungrudgingly render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. But under no circumstances will we render to Caesar what is God’s.

  • Euro Piyan Queen

    Well said!

  • Bryan Lyman

    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!…Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!” — Isaiah 5:20 & 23

    “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts…” — 2nd Peter 3:3

    Just another example of people fulfilling prophesy. There will be those that say there is no evil, or that no matter what you do you will just receive a slap on the wrist and go to heaven all the same. There will be those who have seen devils yet will deny that God exists. Um and yeah read pretty much all of Romans Chapter 1 (which is in the new testament) and it is very clear how Peter “The Rock” and Apostle of Christ felt about Homosexuality, for example:

    “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” — Romans 1:25-27

    So um…if you think the New Testament doesn’t say anything about homosexuality, then you haven’t read it.

    • CL53

      OK, you guys need to know where your Bible comes from. Peter is not the author of Romans. Romans is Paul’s epistle to the church at Rome. Paul didn’t write the book of Acts. Luke wrote the book of The Acts of The Apostles, as well as the Gospel of Luke. Peter’s gospel was penned by Mark (also known as John Mark who served Peter’s ministry) probably as it was dictated to him by Peter. Peter also wrote I & II Peter (the epistles). You negate your veracity by not even knowing the sources you quote. However, to be even more accurate “All Scripture is inspired by God…” meaning it is God-breathed and inspired by the Holy Spirit…the third person of the Trinity.

    • Bryan Lyman

      Me saying the Romans quote was from Peter was an oversight, you are correct. And if you want to see the heated discussion I got into about being spoken by the mouth of his disciples. Look up at edav38’s comments. I agree with you by the way, disciples spoke about it, so that means God spoke about it. End of discussion you would think right? Apparently not so, go look at the discussion for yourself. {update} Oh you already did.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      That last statement is the crux. If the RUACH HAKODESH did not inspire it, then it is not HOLY Writ.

  • Dave Porta

    “You are free to enjoy your lifestyle and you have every right to it; but you don’t have the right to enforce others to endorse it.” — DISAGREE. If they don’t have the right to criminalize our religious conscience behavior, then we don’t have the right to criminalize their deviant sexual behavior.

    Should states have the right to enact laws that criminalize homosexual copulation?

    It is a states rights issue. It is a decentralized government issue. His couching it in terms of absolutes plays right into the hands of the commies, who are the ultimate statists. Statist doctrine does not tolerate states rights. The central government, in statist faith, invalidates all lower governments: all lower governments must be branches of the central state. That is the thinking that his argument cedes tacitly, in the ways it presents itself.

    The constitutional right of states to enact laws that criminalize homosexual copulation was violated – raped – by the supreme court 10 years ago.

    State laws outlawing homosexual copulation were historically universal in the United States. In 2003 the Supreme Court with the Lawrence v. Texas decision struck down sodomy laws remaining in 14 states (Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, and Virginia).

    Monday 7 October 2013 the supreme court began its new term by turning away Virginia’s bid to revive its anti-sodomy law. Ten years ago, the supreme court struck down a Texas anti-sodomy law in a case involving two adults. Virginia argued that the Texas ruling did not apply to sex acts between adults and minors.

    SCOTUS denied the appeal by Virginia attorney general Ken Cuccinelli requesting the court review a federal appeals court ruling that threw out the state’s ban on oral and anal sex.

    • Who said anything about criminalizing behavior? ‘Zo was saying the opposite,actually.

    • InvidiaAbsit AKA 800LbGorilla

      Yeah, I think Chad’s right. You seem to have mixed up the message…

  • CarolinaSistah

    Well done, as usual Zo! You make a lot of sense which means many people won’t understand. Don’t let your truth be stifled because ‘they’ won’t understand. Preach it!

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      CarolinaSistah you are witty and HILARIOUS ;0)

  • When I get as smart as you, Zo I’ll probably be too old to remember how to email you about it…

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      BWA HAW HAW HAH HA!!!!!!!!!! ;0D

  • TruckinMack

    Should homosexuals be allowed to marry is not the question. The question is, ‘Is homosexuality genetic? Is homosexuality some kind of birth defect?’ (The answer is no, at least as yet there is no genetic evidence that homosexuality is genetic – NO GENETIC EVIDENCE – NONE. Sadly the Left has bastardized science, like everything else they bastardize, trying for a fait accompli. We said we were right, so we were right.)

    Homosexuals hate to have it pointed out that they choose to be Gay. It is so much easier for mommy and daddy to accept the lie, ‘We could not help it. We were born Gay, so really it is your fault.’

    I could care less what life Gay people choose to live. That they want their lifestyle forced on society is wrong. That they want to tell 13 year old boys ‘You have no choice in your sexual identity. If you’re Gay, you’re Gay. Don’t worry, you’ll learn to like being assaulted by other men. Really, and besides, you have no choice.’ – that is a horror. Homosexuality is just another way people screw themselves up. Homosexual politics is screwing up our country.

    • american1st

      How do you know gay people choose to be gay? When was the last time u tried it to see if you might like it? NO ONE WHO IS NOT BORN GAY EVER HAS THE DESIRE TO BE GAY, ARE YOU THAT STUPID YOU THINK PEOPLE DO THINGS THAT ARE REPUGNANT TO HETEROSEXUALS? Gay people are born that way, I dare you to try out being gay then tell me its not for you.

    • TruckinMack

      A-1: I could continue this discussion, but as you are at heart a Liberal, meaning over the top, obnoxiously rude, what would be the point?

      I do find it exceedingly interesting that Gays find it threatening to say that they have a choice in their sexuality. In most of the intellectual universe when we tell people that they have a choice it is considered an open, honest, accepting comment. It Gayspeak, it is hate speech to say you have a choice.

      Thanks for letting me point that out… and thanks for the chuckles.

    • TruckinMack

      For everyone else, choosing Gay is no different than most other choices we make.

      There is a sexual animal inside of each of us. Which animal lives? The one we feed. (Gays do not want teenagers to know this. They want to take advantage of emotionally conflicted and intellectually confused kids at every opportunity.)

      The celibate? The Heterosexual? The unisexual? The omnisexual? The Gay? The faithful? The faithless? The pedophile? The necrophiliac? The Zoophilic? Fatty’s, Dwarves and Amputees are all possibilities.

      Your life, your choice. Hate speech in the Gay culture… Just one reason I call Gays emotionally unstable.

    • american1st

      You are no more conservative than the crazy family church that pickets dead soldiers funerals because the armed forces no longer banns Gays in the military!
      Just like the Christians who killed non Christians and burned witches alive at the stake you were all cut from the same flawed cloth that zealots like you come from.
      You are sick demented humans unable to function without the comfort you gain from the made up words of the bible that a thousand of you interpret in a thousand different ways.
      How easily you forget King James hired 37 translators & when they could not agree on many chapters of the bible they only finally agreed on them after the king threatened to behead them all.
      How little faith you have in God when you need the false words in the bible as your connection to our Lord!

    • Average Joe

      How little you know, american1st. You yell, cry and scream in one argument that no one else is allowed to pass judgement, save for God, and yet you hypocritically judge, judge and judge some more. You, child, are going to judge yourself into your own special place in Hell.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      I know, right.

    • Friend that is what they all do all the time. They want us to live to a standard that they refuse to follow.

    • Yes I’m the famous Joe

      So true, they are what they are.

    • TruckinMack

      A-1, I called you a typical Liberal because you are rude and insulting. You’ve now added anti-Christian, random and pointless. I’m not sure if you can be a more stereotypical Liberal. Please continue. You are a joy.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      Are you saying steak sauce over here is “aspring a thing a wonderful thing every1 knows it’s slinky”? BWA HAW HAWhAh hAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;0D

    • Kevin

      FYI, “witches” were usually hanged, not burned; as far as Christianity, you have an outsiders view, being a non-believer for one, and historically you’re obviously unread. Christianity is based upon faith, as well, not tangibles, or facts (which are temporal, not eternal) Which incidentally is centered on the most historically centered story of Love: that a man would lay His life down for a friend. Not the distortions of hateful acts perpetrated falsely in God’s name. The Gospel is foolishness to the world, but life to those that believe. As for me and my home, we believe! Praise the Name of Jesus! I pray your eyes may one day be opened to the altogether lovely one, for He loves you my friend.

    • Tom

      Hi TruckinMack. I thought I’d just support some of your thoughts. I spent a lot of time in the late ’70s reading the radical homosexual literature that came out of Haight-Ashbury because of some prevailing underground currents that were running through the Roman Catholic seminaries during that time. The philosophies that were driving the homosexual movements of the time were actually radical free-sex philosophies that tied themselves to the homosexual theme as the most likely vehicle that would take the deeper philosophy into the mainstream. These concepts were everywhere intimated and in some places claimed outright in the writings of the day. Many proposed an outright frontal attack on teenagers since that group was most likely to be standing on shaky ground with regard to matters of sexual identity. You know, the “Am I really a mans man?” worry that over half of all young men face when they experience issues of latent development. (There was actually not a lot of discussion along these lines with regard to females, at least in those authors I read.) So, the people arguing that it is ridiculous to think that people would “choose” the homosexual lifestyle haven’t delved into the machinations of the radical free-sex philosophies. Yes, mixed up teens and all others who are submersed in the confusingly sexualized world of today can chose a lifestyle that doesn’t really match what they would later chose in a more stabilized and mature frame of mind. So you can withstand the arrows of your detractors with my humble observations along side.

    • TruckinMack

      Tom, as is my oft refrain, the adults in the room have to stand up to evil and say, ‘No!’

      That evil has co-opted the younger generation makes it more important than ever for adults to not be afraid; we have to take the moral high ground. We have to shout the truth from the rooftops. Many won’t hear… but some will.

      Thanks for your note of support.

    • cjleete

      First of all, inviting someone to “try out being gay” implies that homosexuality is behavioural, rather than genetic. I could care less what people do behind closed doors with other consenting adults, you can even marry another guy, you can marry your f*&^ing cat for all I care, I’m just saying you are shooting holes in your own argument.
      Second, your diatribe in caps burns my eyes and further reduces your credibility.

  • Darrell

    Marriage was created by God and He is the one who defines and controls it. Not any people or government. Most people have no problem with a Civil Union but to ask someone to change their own beliefs to meet your desires is wrong.

    • american1st

      The romans got married long before Jesus came to earth, which one of their many Gods told them to get married? God gave us free will & the ability to think, HE DID NOT MAKE US DUMMIES TO LISTEN TO THE HATE PREACHED BY THOSE WHO LIKE TO ACT LIKE ONLY THEY KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH IS!
      Use the brains God gave you & ask ur self, if God made us all, didnt he make Gay people too?

    • Zo

      And you do realize that the Bible spoke against homosexuality long before Jesus walked the earth right. Yes, god gives us free will. The will to do the right thing or the wrong thing, and He makes very clear what is right and wrong. As far as God making gays, God also gave them free will too, and the can either use their free will to satisfy their selfishness, or they can choose to not sin against God. Hopefully you’ll choose to stop using such weak and shallow arguments.

    • I wonder when they will get it we don’t hate gay people we just don’t agree with what they do because of our Lord tells us not do that. My sinful self would just love to go crazy break the rules do what I want but because of what is asked from us by God is to put away our self and pick up our cross and follow him My favorite theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote in his book cost of discipleship that when Jesus calls a man he calls him to come and die. How these people say we hate what we don’t understand when they don’t even understand the very Nature of Jesus ask of us in order to follow him and hate us for following his words of dying to one’s self. I got a few gay friends and explained this to them they might not agree with me but at least they understand I don’t hate them. I don’t know about you but I never once ran into a true Christian that hated gay people.

    • american1st

      If you don t hate Gay people leave them alone. Stop speaking like you know what it is to be gay unless you have lived in the shoes of a gay person! I have seen my nephew persecuted by those who claim to be good Christians. So much so that I have cursed God for creating such evil believers who have killed billions of other humans since Christ. LOOK AT THE WAY MUSLIMS & ISLAM KILLS & IMAGINE HOW CHRISTIANS WERE MUCH LIKE THAT UP TO AROUND 1850.
      JUST REMEMBER BURNING WITCHES ALIVE AT STAKES WAS A VERY CHRISTIAN WAY TO BEHAVE AT ONE TIME !
      SHAME ON ALL YOU ZEALOTS!

    • Dude my friend asked me why we Christians believed we had to die to ones self. What do you want me to do lie to them because they are gay? You think it is easy for a strait Christian to get to say no to their sin? What a fool you are mistake me talking about what all Christians must do in order to call themselves Christian with westboro. I was not even talking about any particular sin. If I persecuted gay people for believing in the Bible tell me how in the hell do I have to gay friends? I believe government has no right to be in marriage but I guess that is homophobic in your eyes. If they are making fun of a gay man their for they are not Christian lets make that clear because we have all falling short of the grace of God and to make fun of someone for that is condemning yourself. Hell I have a friend that came to Christ she had the party life and the fake Christians the one’s that sold out to cheep grace treat her like sub human but you judge all of us based on these fools? Are you freaken kidding me! You compare us to murders because we follow the Bible oh yah that is normal to call us murders for what non Christians did. Yes I believe that those that killed in Jesus name where not Christian like I believe any Christian that makes fun of another’s sin is not a Christian so please get off your high horse zealot and actually read what I wrote down. Jesus calls all of to die to ourselves no buddy gets a waver this is not Obamacare.

    • american1st

      Doubting A HATE MONGER IS WEAK?
      It is bible thumping zealots like you who pretend to know what God Intended using the Bible as Gods words.
      You are a human & have no right to judge or tell others what is right or wrong in our Gods eyes! How easily you forget Tomas de Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition, REMEMBER THEM? THEY KILLED MILLIONS OF FELLOW HUMANS CLAIMING TO KNOW WHAT THEIR GOD WANTED!

      God created Gay people to live how they choose. God also created the idiots who used to kill all who did not worship in a particular way! The zealots in Europe thought by fighting to the death God would help the correct one win. It never dawned on them that being better conditioned or trained in killing had little to do with it?

      Millions were killed when those men who pretended to know what God wanted and they made claims, THAT CAME FROM THEIR OWN BLACK HEARTS!

      God will take care of those who sin, who are you to claim to know what God wants? It is you monsters who sound like Torquemada and the Inquisition ready to kill for what you think is witchcraft & heresy that God will judge as sinners when you have no answer to why you persecuted other humans!
      I hope God punished you for the hate you zealots spew now!

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      Torquemada practiced the ancient Babylonian mystery religion Not Christianity.

    • “You are a human & have no right to judge or tell others what is right or wrong in our Gods eyes” quote American1st but it is ok for you to do that to us? “I hope God punished you for the hate you zealots spew now” quote American1st but it is ok to hate everyone else that disagrees with you? Are you trying to get the world biggest hypocrite award or something?

    • Tom

      You sure do get things stirred up, Zo. It’s good to come by and see what’s happening on your site every so often. I’ve lived amongst and worked with homosexuals for over thirty years–as have almost all who have lived and worked out in society for the past thirty years. I find that I am most likely to get an opportunity to share the good news of Jesus Christ with them when I am respectful and kind with them as my co-worker(s). I don’t sugar coat my perspectives when I am asked, and I don’t present them as stances that place me on a higher holiness plain than them–that would be righteousness by works. To the people who say that “God created homosexuals too” as a means of supporting their desire to marry, I would say that God created adulterers, fornicators, murderers, liars, ect. too. People suffer with attractions to various forms of sin, and those people must deal with those attractions through the power of the law’s condemnation of such and the good news’ power to deliver from that condemnation. So, when I place all sin, including those to which I am most prone (which also seems the most heinous in a very personal way) on a level playing field called sin, then I find it easier to keep the message of salvation through Christ foremost in spite of all the clatter about this new social issue or that. As such, I can tame an irrational hatred for one sin over another and am less inclined to provoke a non-Christ-centered reaction of offense. The message of Christ alone gives offense enough, and I don’t need to help it along with my own outrage toward the sin of another.

    • Kevin

      Jesus fulfilled the law (the ministry of death) and it was nailed on the cross with Jesus. “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Mankind has NEVER been able to “live right”by following the ten commandments, and was never it’s intention. Rather, to show us our need for God. Mankind is corrupted and cannot reach God. But Jesus bridged that gap between us and God by paying our penalty for sin. Our old nature has been crucified with Christ; and because of His great Love toward us, we can walk blameless in His sight! Not because WE chose to not sin, but because HE loved us first, we can be free to not sin. Jesus did(and still does) it all. The only part we “play” is believing and receiving! Even in that, we STILL need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes and enable us to release our will, and rest in His work…just sayin’…

    • InvidiaAbsit AKA 800LbGorilla

      Zo is right – this is weak. You’ve got to recognize the freewill aspect. The first sin was a result of freewill. Cain and Able was a story about freewill. Abraham was obedient to God as a demonstration of his faith and God rewarded him for it. The theme of doing what God asks of us instead of what we would prefer to do for ourselves is a common thread throughout the Bible and all of it came a long time before Christ came to earth, or the Roman empire formed. Homosexuality is no different than any other want or desire man may have. It’s not about sexual preference. It’s about what’s good for us. If you think about God’s commandments, they aren’t intended to make us miserable. They are intended to keep us safe and out of harm’s way.

    • edav38

      Very Well Said, Darrell!!!

  • Laurel

    Bravo Zo! Well done!

    Marriage is not a right regardless of sexuality. This country and Western Civilization are making a gigantic mistake in defining it as such.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      How come eastern civilization isn’t redefining Marriage? Just asking

    • Laurel

      In some parts of Eastern Civilization homosexuality is built into it especially Asian based cultures. Realize though that parts of their culture define homosexuality quite differently than the West.

  • Angi Bryan

    One word: Awesome!!!

  • Rockon

    The homosexual activist movement is based on euphemism, hijacked etymology, Orwellian double-speak, and a victim-card passion play. There is absolutely no such thing as a “sexual orientation,” and the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” is a false dichotomy, a fictitious socio-political identity that was coined by one guy in Germany in the 1860s (Karl Kertbeny) who was an activist/travel writer, had no background as a scientist or a psychologist whatsoever. The are ONLY men and women (PERIOD)

  • David

    well said, I have gay friends also, none of my business unless they ask for my input. Don’t understand all the hate. But what I am seeing is what they are hating on me for is usually what they are guilty of. I guess they want their fleas to jump on me ha! nothing to eat over here.

  • edav38

    Christ never actually Mentioned Homosexuality, Paul said a great Deal about it, Jude said quite a bit, Christ Never did, and you cannot find it anywhere where Christ actually talked.
    Not, I do not think you are a hater, but get the truth Correct.
    YES, Paul was Led by the Holy Spirit to say what he said, but do not confuse PAULs words with CHRISTs words.
    No, Gay Marriage should Never be legalized.
    But the FACT is there is NOT ONE WORD from Christ, mentioned Homosexuality. It IS in the New Testament, but NOT from Christ….THAT IS FACT

    • Bryan Lyman

      You forget that his apostles were one with him and spoke his words as if they were his own, so in actuality, he did speak about it, it was just through his ordained servants. You may call it a technicality, however, keep in mind that Jesus didn’t write any of the books that are collected in the New Testament himself, they were all written by his apostles as records they kept of the events of Jesus’ life and afterwards until their deaths. So the words of the apostles are the only record we have of the words of Christ. I would also mention that the Bible is a small collection of their writings, I only wish we had more, sadly they have either been destroyed or hidden. Someday we may find more, wouldn’t it be incredible if we found records penned by Jesus himself, that would be the most important discovery in history.

    • edav38

      YOU are incorrect Bryan, Christ never said a word about it. Paul lived more than 50 Years AFTER Christ ascended to Heaven, Paul was NOT there to speak for Jesus. Matthew, Mark Luke, John and Peter were, and it is NOT in any of theirs writings. Thus you have no leg to stand on.

    • Bryan Lyman

      The resurrected savior said of Saul of Tarsus before he became Paul: “…for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.” — Acts 9:15-16

      If you bear the name of Christ, I am pretty sure you speak for him. He held Christ’s priesthood and performed miracles. I would say that qualifies.

    • edav38

      Acts was written by PAUL, Several Decades AFTER Christ ascended to Heaven.
      You can keep Trying, but you will NEVER be able to show CHRIST saying anything about homosexuality, because it Is NOT Written ANYWHERE. You CANNOT Create something from nothing, ONLY God can do that, you are NOT He.
      ANYONE Can call themselves a Christian, that does NOT make them the Mouthpiece of Christ, as Seen by So Many evangelists, priests and pastors who bastardize the Message of Christ for their personal gain.
      This is the Problem with so many who CALL themselves Christian, they try to make the Bible say things it has Never Said, and I am NOT only talking about homosexuality. You refuse to UNDERSTAND the Bible as a Whole, you ONLY want to Look at Words, but NOT where those words came from, and WHY they were written. Words have No Meaning when you do not understand WHY they were written, and you obviously do not understand the context in which what was written was written, and why each author wrote them. But God gave so many clues as to why He had each thing written, but you Keep your Blinders up and Refuse to look at the WHOLE Picture. You can ONLY see Letters and words, and NOT Meanings.

    • Bryan Lyman

      Wow, why the hostility brother? You are chastising me for believing that Acts is scripture? By your definition, everything written after Christ died is not scripture, but Christ himself said he would be resurrected and appeared to his apostles after his death. To say that the words of Paul are invalid because he lived 50 years after Christ would mean you have no faith that the resurrected Christ converted Saul and that he spoke to his apostles after death confirming that Paul was indeed the real deal. That seems to show lack of faith on your part not mine. in what way am I “bastardizing” the scriptures to say that Paul was the mouthpiece of the lord? If you want to talk about it not being written by Christ, then you are invalidating all the gospels since none of them were written directly by him, only by someone who claimed to be his apostle and claimed Jesus actually said what he said. Jesus lived around 30 years, and to say that the totality of his actual words he spoke is summed up by four books out of all the gospels, and that somehow those four books are more relevant because that apostle that wrote it walked with Jesus instead of having a resurrected Jesus come and strike you blind is simply not correct. I admit I am no expert on the Bible, but it seems to me you are condemning me because I am not one. I am learning, and if you say you know all there is to know and you are an authority on it shows arrogance and blindness. Calm down and try not to hate me, pull the mote out of your own eye first my friend.

    • edav38

      I have no hostility toward your willful ignorance of the Bible, or whatever it is your are spouting, whatever your reason is for doing so. But I will defend my position, and will not acquiesce when i know I am right. And why is it that when someone disagrees with someone like you, that you and people like you have to pull out this attitude of “You must think you know it all”? I never said I know it all, or ever acted like I do,

      I stated Reality, you refuse to believe anything other than what you have been told, likely your whole life, to believe and refuse to budge from your lack of understanding. That is your right. Until you can go into the Gospels (and nothing Paul wrote is considered part of the Gospels), and show the verse or verses where it Shows Christ saying anything about homosexuality, you will not have a leg to stand on against my position, because you cannot ever prove Christ said Word One about homosexuality, because He did NOT.
      Now, you can call my refusal to budge on the Facts as Hostility, which is the Most Common response from people like you, if you like, but that in no way makes your argument against be based in fact, because your position is NOT based in Fact or in Reality.

    • Bryan Lyman

      People like me? You call me ignorant, you say I refuse to believe anything other than what I am told. Not only is that hostile, that is the very definition of “Puffed Up”. Seems to me you are stuck on literality and your own interpretation of fact. There were others that lived during Christ’s life that were stuck on literality and self-interpreted fact, they were called pharisees and sadducees; they were so literal they thought when Jesus told them “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life” that he was talking about cannibalism. They too arrogantly thought that they were right because they had studied the Torah their whole lives and in their minds the Old Testament mentioned nothing of Jesus being the Messiah (even though both Isaiah and Jeremiah prophesied of Jesus’ birth quite plainly). I have lived long enough to know that often when I think I am 100% sure I am right, I am often not right. You claim you know you are right. That sounds much like scientists of today who claim they know their theory is right (never mind the fallacy of claiming a “theory” as “fact”). For the record, I agree with you that the people don’t look at the Bible as a whole, and that they take pieces of it to conform to their beliefs as they see fit, this is why we have so many churches all based on the same book. It is why there is a church so focused on one small event in the Bible and ignoring the whole, that they think handling snakes is the key to salvation; just because Paul got bit and didn’t die. So…literally speaking it is true, we have no record of Jesus ever saying personally anything about homosexuality while he was in the flesh. But that doesn’t mean what the rest of the Bible says about it is invalid, especially since it is mentioned in the Old Testament and Jesus did say “I am that I am” mirroring the words spoken by Jehova in Exodus and enraging the Pharisees that Jesus would blaspheme to say he was the God of the Old Testament. So you can ignore the Old testament, and you can ignore all of the New testament except for a few books, but it doesn’t change the fact that God has spoken pretty plainly on the subject of homosexuality whether it be as Jehova, or through the mouth of one of his disciples. Sin is sin, and trying to wish it away by saying Jesus never mentioned it, is falsehood in its purest form. And saying others should see the Bible as a whole yet invalidating most of it in the same breath is hypocrisy in very definition.

    • edav38

      Yes, Bryan, People like, you, and YES, you argument comes from a position of ignorance, you have been told your whole life to believe something, so you believe it without question. I USED to be like that, until I Stopped Listening to SINFUL Humans as my Ultimate Authority, and Started Listening to God. Yes, God is Very Judgmental about a great many thing, but GOD has the Right, BRYAN DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to Judge others in that manner, and thus I will Argue against those who take the position you are taking, to my last breath.
      The More you Judge others, the More you Keep yourself from being able to Witness To them, to Bring them to Christ. Why is it that you think so many GLBTs are completely Disgusted by we Christians? Why have to many of them turned to Atheism, to Satan, to Pagan religions, when so many of them were born and raised around Christ?
      It is because of this Very Attitude of Judgmentalism.
      When ALL you do is Condemn someone, then you HAVE NO ABILITY to Bring them Out of their Sin. This is why Christ didn’t not Condemn Mary Magdalene, but Only Condemned her Sin. This is what Alfonzo was talking about when he said he would never be nasty to Homosexuals, because when you Condemn someone you LOSE ALL ABILITY to Converse with them, to bring them to Christ. Yes, i am doing a similar thing with you, but you Should be able to deal with it without acting like the spoiled brat you have been responding like, Bryan. You are Supposed to have Christ behind you, IF that is correct, you getting prissy with me is NOT necessary. The Problem though is your Words Tell me that you have very little knowledge of your own about the Bible, that you have almost Mainly Someone else’s knowledge of the Bible, what that means is you get Most of your knowledge from listening to others, instead of doing the thinking for yourself.
      Based on your response to this, it will tell me With Certainty How correct I am. I am better I am 80-90% correct.

    • Kevin

      ALL of God’s judgement and condemnation was fully taken by the Lord Jesus’ death at the cross. God loves us, and no longer judges us; Jesus satisfied the judicial need for payment of all mankind’s sin at the cross. He is a very loving and kind Father (Abba=Daddy). He gave His only Son! How much more can True Love be demonstrated? Would you even die for those who you bicker with on this post? Jesus did….Praise Him!

    • edav38

      I Would Definitely Die for ANYONE who argues from a standpoint of Seeking God/Christ/Holy Spirit. EVEN Bryan and Kellymatthew. While I disagree with them, and WILL continue to Disagree with them until they Realize that Matthew 7:1-5 is among the Most Important Lessons we were Ever Taught.

      Matthew 7
      New International Version (NIV)
      1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      OR that John 3;16 is only the BEGINNING of the knowledge, and has No Meaning to it WITHOUT ADDING verses 17 & 18, since verse 16 is ONLY “Information”, but 17 & 18 are the Explanation of 16

      John 3:16-18
      New International Version (NIV)
      16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

      17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    • Kevin

      Do you consider yourself the Holy Spirit’s advocate? The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth…Your argumentative posts strike me as though you still receive condemnation from guilt. Otherwise, a spirit of admonition in loving kindness would be little more evident. The world who is watching us, needs to see the love of the Lord between us, otherwise, why would they hunger for what/Who we have, right? I would encourage you to share life in your words; words that encourage, uplift, and inspire, as this is what is pleasing to the Lord Jesus: our Righteous and altogether lovely Savior!

    • edav38

      I very much consider myself an advocate for the Holy Spirit, I do not believe most people, Christian or otherwise, truly understand the concept of God as three separate but equal entities, three separate but equal personalities and three separate but equal existences. I consistently try to get people to understand these concepts. The Bible tries to explain it, and while people SAY they understand it, their positions belie their true misunderstanding, or non-understanding, of the concept. Some think the Trinity is just God in 3 forms, all with the SAME personalities. People do not like to contemplate this because society has attempted to make this concept look like a mental disorder. Yet, it is much more, and gives us a better understanding of what God is all about. God is NOT in the Little Box that much of Christianity like to put Him into, He is Much Much more than that, and the Trinity tells us this. Jesus the Christ is a Completely Separate Entity than Yaweh, as is the Holy Spirit, while being the Same all at the same time. And while Christ is no longer HERE, because He Really is NOT here, the Holy Spirit IS here, and while Yaweh has NOT been HERE since He banished Adam and Eve from the Garden, the Holy Spirit IS here. The Holy Spirit is NOT as Rigid as Yaweh is, while He IS as rigid at the same time. People have a hard time understanding this, partly because it is easier to put God in a Little Box, because it helps them feel more comfortable

      It is the Hard concepts that so many Christians do NOT like to deal with. Christ said to us:

      Mark 11:24-25
      24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

      Matthew 21:21-22
      21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

      The Holy Spirit is here to enforce these concepts, even when Christians try to Ignore them for their own personal prejudices. Just because a Christian SAYS God can never forgive something, Does Not Make It True

      My facebook profile page has a quote that says: :”Nothing you confess, could make me love you less – Jesus”, and while those specific Words are not in the Bible itself, the Bible, BOTH Old and New, Do Say that specifically, yet in other words. The Bible, as a Whole, tells us, “It is what it is, Until it Isn’t”, because EVERYTHING, Through God changes eventually, and those quotes above really tick off most Christians, because they Tell you that God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) CAN LOVE the Homosexual. And Considering how forgiveness works, God CAN FORGIVE Homosexuality, IN THE SAME MANNER that He Forgives Humans Ingesting Pork, Shellfish and Men cutting their beards, women cutting their Hair, ALLLLL of which are Expressly Forbidden in Leviticus RIGHT NEXT TO the passages about homosexuality.

      This is why I kept putting up the verses from Matthew 7:1-5, because God is telling us to LOOK at our Own Sins BEFORE we start Ragging on other peoples sins.

      So, yes, I DO consider myself a Holy Spirit Advocate, and WILL continue to Defend God FROM His followers.

    • jayleigh

      You don’t have to defend anyone FROM God’s followers! He can manage any discipline necessary. He doesn’t need your help. What you need to do is simmer down and study to show yourself approved, a workman who needs not to be ashamed, and remember that it is the Holy Spirit who is given the responsibility for “convicting” of sin, error and also of righteousness. So, calm down. You “sound” like a really new convert who has let zeal overtake your good judgment. i can’t decide between your being a troll and a “baiter” and just a person so new to Christianity that you still take things out of context and do a lot of “proof-texting” to make your point. But whatever, your tone is not one of Christian charity, or of instruction or even just dialogue. It is bombastic, confrontational and rude. You behave as if you have all knowledge pertaining to the Scripture and no one else has any knowledge at all. So, are you the Pope of the i-net, or what? You are extremely offensive in the way you post – that doesn’t lead to good dialogue; it leads to more combat which is not the way Christians are supposed to interact with each other, even in the case of disagreements. So, are you genuine or a shill? It’s hard to tell by your tone. God didn’t call you to tell us we are a “brood of vipers” you know? But that’s how you come across. You refuse to listen to any one who offers proof of the integrity of Paul’s writings, and you are confused about which gospels were written by the original “12” and you refuse to acknowledge Paul’s “Road to Damascus” experience was a true calling to Apostleship by Jesus, Himself, and you claim he lived 50 years after Jesus – when he was actually a contemporary of Peter…. so you dismiss his writings as… what? Non-canonical, or frivolous, or non-essential, or…. ? i’m baffled by you!

    • edav38

      Actually, yes, Many need to be Protected FROM Gods Followers. The Salem Witch Trials is a PERFECT Example.

    • Bryan Lyman

      I never condemned anybody, I never said gay people are going to hell, I just said homosexual activity is a sin. You can’t pick and choose what sins you think are sins out of convenience, they just are, and Christ asks us lovingly to follow him instead of our own carnal desires. You are absolutely right that Jesus never condemned sinners, in fact, the only time he even seemed to get upset was when it was holy men who should know better, and he chastised them not condemned them. The only reason I responded was not to get in the last word, it was to refute what you say about me. You can rant and call me ignorant all you want, but you don’t know me anymore than I know you; especially from small comments made on a web site. I never intended to offend you, If I did, I apologize. You seem to want to “prove” you know more about the Bible than me. I don’t care if you do, we are all at different levels of understanding, you may know some things more than me, and I may more about a different subject. Stop fighting with me. We believe the same thing.

    • edav38

      Why do you Personalize everything everyone says Bryan? Feeling Guilty? That is usually why people do that.
      By YOUR own original respons to my response to Alfonzo’s video, you are CLEARLY Judging me by my words, without Asking WHY I said as I did.
      I refer you to Matthew 7:1-5
      After you understand that, and if you want to have a Discussion about WHY I said as I did, Instead of the Argument that you incited, let me know.
      I would also suggest you read John 3:16-18, DO NOT leave out verses 17 & 18, because 16 has No meaning without 17 & 18, 16 is Only Words with out 17-18

    • jayleigh

      don’t let him bully you. He’s really a fraud. He doesn’t really know scripture; he just tosses it about to try to prove a point, but he is not cognizant of the continuity of Scripture from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 – and in fact, Jesus did warn us not to trust every one who claimed to be His servants. By their fruit, we know them, and this person’s fruit is NOT salvific!

    • I will judge anyone who facilitates or advocates for homosexuality, esp those seeing to the promulgation of the hideous life style in our schools and traditional institutions. I’ll judge them as unfit to be around children and it is about time more did. GLBT, or whatever acronym they fly by, do not turn to atheism because of judgmental Christians but because they prefer sexual gratification over God. It is really that simple. I am sick of this pandering to sin and then using tedious scriptural debates to justify it.

    • edav38

      That is Fine, SIN against what Matthew 7:1-5 says, and I will call you a Hypocrite, because according to that passage in the Bible, A Walker, that is Exactly what you are!!

    • jayleigh

      Oh yes, the Judge not passage. You really like trotting that one out, don’t you, although you are very quick to toss around judgment left and right to anyone who says you nay! Take a dose of your own medicine please, then lie down and take a breather, think calm thoughts and meditate on 1 Corinthians 13 – opps, i forgot, that was written by Paul. So, how i guess that one wouldn’t help you. How about Psalm 100, that one ought to calm your spirit. But, i suggest you take your Matthew passage strictly to heart yourself. What good for the goose, as the saying goes, is good for the gander.

    • jayleigh

      80-90% correct? Hmmm God says you must be 100% correct or you are in serious trouble with Him if you claim to speak for him. any percentage less than 100% is a violation of His “rule” for a prophet. And, when you claim to speak for God, you are claiming to be a prophet. With God, there is no “margin for error.” When you invoke God’s name, you call on His Holiness to witness on your behalf. Be careful – those who claimed ‘100%’ knowledge of what God “said” died abruptly in the Old Testament narratives. So, either you have 100% knowledge or….

    • edav38

      Guess what, if i am in trouble with God, that is between ME AND HIM, NO Mention of a “Middle-man” named Jayleigh mentioned in the Bible

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      When secularists get angry destruction follows, but when followers of Jesus get angry a BIBLE study Breaks out. GOD BLESS YOU :0)

    • edav38

      Do not call someone a “Secularist” Unless you can SEE their HEART, and since ONLY GOD Can SEE Your Heart, you have NOTHING but “PRIDE” in calling someone a Secularist

    • jayleigh

      What else should we call you? Your heart is clearly evident in your angry posts. Your argument is all air and without substance. It is so clear that you are Biblically illiterate and you have only one note on your horn. You call it “pride” – yet many of us have studied the Bible in the original languages, and you call that “pride” and yet, what is the source of YOUR pride? It is that YOU still make a faulty claim about what Jesus omitted saying about homosexuality, and you call others “prideful” for not believing what you erroneously claim. May God have mercy on your soul!

    • edav38

      You have never SEEn my Heart, ONLY God can see yours or my Heart, GOD EVEN SAID SO, or do you not Read the Bible?

    • Guest

      I am not casting pearls before swine.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      I see you are full of pride.

    • edav38

      Yada, Yada, Yada,….
      You probably See enemies around ever corner as well, don’t you? You See what you want to see.

    • jayleigh

      You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, as the proverbial saying goes. When Jesus said He came to fulfill the LAW and not to destroy it, what about that do you not understand as including the prohibition against homosexuality? And, btw, Mark was NOT one of the twelve original disciples, so do you count the “gospel” of Mark as the genuine article, or is it spurious, too? You aren’t consistent, nor are you Biblically literate. Paul, as i have said, was a contemporary of Peter and many of the original twelve were still living (not Judas, of course, because he “hanged himself” in shame for his betrayal, but he died still unrepentant, just “ashamed” and he went to his father satan. You don’t even know which of the Gospels were written by disciples and which were written by after-ascension disciples. But, more to the point, God inspired Moses writing of the first five books of the Bible, and He inspired the prophets, and so, HE (God) inspired the other New Testament authors. The “gospel” writers who were part of the original twelve are those we sort of know. Not all of them were inspired to write, as far as we know. There is no Gospel of Bartholomew, for instance, but i’m sure he had great stories to tell, And Peter never wrote a gospel, although he was one of the original twelve intimates; but he did write letters; so are his letters valid or not? (oh, an by the way, Jesus’ disciples actually numbered in the hundreds by the time He was crucified, but when we say “disciples” we usually mean the 12 who were His “called” to follow Him in His parapatetic ministry; but His actual followers {disciples} were a vast number). You have a vast amount of ignorance rumbling around in a small angry mind.

    • jayleigh

      He’s no “brother” of ours. He’s a troll. i thought at first he really was just confused, but i see now that he is continuing on with the same arguments, regardless of how many times he has shown to be in error. There’s no point in bothering with this shill any longer.

    • Bryan Lyman

      All of us are brothers and sisters regardless of what they do, even when Christ was nailed to the cross he asked God to forgive them because they didn’t understand they were nailing their brother to the cross. But yes, I have extended the olive branch to him many times only to have him slap it away. He says don’t judge and then judges everybody else in the next breath. He is not here for the right reasons, that is apparent, if he continues without humbling himself and acting more Christlike, let us do just as I suggested before, and ignore him.

    • edav38

      When ANYONE Refuses to Bow To Jayleigh, then they MUST be a Fraud or a Troll, You have enough PRIDE for all of us

    • CL53

      Actually, Acts was written by Luke; the same physician who penned the Gospel of Luke. But if you want to keep referring to the apostles, John states that there were many other miracles and wonders that Christ performed….so many that they could not be contained in any written record. (my paraphrase)

    • edav38

      Acts may have been Written Mainly, not SOLELY, but Luke, it was Written about the ministry of Paul, NOT the Ministry of Christ, with some of the Ministry of Peter included. Acts was written between 60-64 AD, which is CLEARLY several decades after Ascension, and since if was About Paul and about Pauls words, Cannot be considered CHRISTs words.
      Yes, i know the arguments you will use, but since Christ NEVER SAID ONE WORD about it, pro or con, you still have no legs in this

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      No. Who is the Head of the Body of MESHIACH?

    • edav38

      There you go, AGAIN, Trying to LOOK “Intelligent”, and getting it not only Wrong, but Looking Extra PRIDEFUL as well.
      MESHIACH is a Jewish term that is NOT a Christian Term, by general knowledge. You SHOULD have said Messiah, because that is the Term that Christians use (unless you live by the Latin Language alone, which NO ONE does anymore, unless you live IN Vatican City, and even they Mostly do not either).
      MESHIACH is the Jewish Messiah, and since they DO NOT Believe Jesus was anything more than a Prophet, using that word is NOT a correct usage.
      IF you are going to TRY to LOOK Intelligent, make sure you use Wording Correctly, and know what you are saying, before you make yourself look like a fool.

    • jayleigh

      Yep! He doesn’t even know which of the NT books Paul wrote or even the time-frame. i’ve told him Paul was a contemporary of Peter, one of the original twelve, but he doesn’t care about that. He’s just a troll having a blast at baiting. No point in carrying on discussion with him. He’s a shill for someone.

    • edav38

      No, Actually Luke is BELIEVED to have been written by Luke, there is No Difnitive Proof of that. Many book were written by many people, many NOT by those who were attributed to them.

    • edav38

      And you can say ANYTHING qualifies for anything you like, it does not make you right or an authority.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      I see clearly now you are like the Sadducees of old they believed not in the spiritual realm nor in everlasting life.

    • edav38

      And I Clearly SEE that YOU are Just Like the Pharisees, and Would Condemn Christ as they did, for Subversion.

    • jayleigh

      You are a fraud – a troll. That’s all you are doing – you are baiting. That’s all. There’s no point in continuing discussion with you because you have no intellectual integrity. You are simply a troll on this site, getting your jollies from being contrary. It is disingenuous, dishonest, and intellectually bankrupt.

    • Kellymatthew Barnes

      So you believe That the Apostle Paul was not inspired of The RUACH HAKODESH. I see.

    • edav38

      Using “RUACH HAKODESH: is you trying to Look intelligent by using a term that Most people do not know, or “PRIDE”, Who said that i said he was Not inspired by the Holy Spirit? I NEVER said that. But I also know “”HUMANS””, and Like you they are Prideful, and thus Sinful, and ADD their Own take on things, sometimes to make themselves LOOK better, or to Make themselves Look more Knowledgeable (as you just Tried to do, by using “RUACH HAKODESH”, instead of Simply say “The Holy Spirit”). I Believe that PAUL was a HUMAN, and Thus Fallible, no matter if the Holy Spirit inspired him or not. He was also a Absolutist, as Seen by his actions before the Holy Spirit Removed “the scales from his eyes”,
      The REALITY is, that YOU and All Others Judging ANYONE, as Alfonzo SAID, will do nothing more than make YOU Look Prideful. I made a Simple Comment, and YOU and other Attack me, because you do not Like that I am RIGHT.

    • jayleigh

      You are also HUMAN and fallible! Do you think the original twelve disciples were “saints” and above human sin and failings? Are you saying that? You are NOT under attack – we are in a dialogue with you, but you seem to be full of such anger, you cannot dialogue, you can only scream at us, mock anyone who disagrees with you, and resort to telling us to use “google” for verification of YOUR opinion. You think it is “prideful” to know Hebrew and/or Greek? You know that one phrase, ruach hakodesh, but how do you know it? Is it because you used google to look it up? YOU are prideful in that you refuse to learn from anyone who has more Biblical knowledge than you. So, while you have one finger pointing at others, you have the proverbial four fingers pointing back to you! Paul was a Pharisee before Jesus called him to Apostleship, and one of the things that made him so excellent as a teacher (apologist) is his background in Jewish law. He was a member of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish “court of law” and had extensive knowledge of the Old Testament LAW – so when he did “rule” on homosexuality, it was with good authority and knowledge. You really need to do some study of Christian history by sources more reliable than google! And, again, i reiterate – Jesus DID not come to abolish the “LAW” – He himself said He came to fulfill it – and the LAW included the prohibition against homosexuality, among other things. The ceremonial law was superceded by His life, death, resurrection and ascension, BUT the moral law remained – and THAT included prohibition of same-sex sexual relationships!

    • edav38

      Jayleigh, Pull yourself back and stop with the attitude. But, YES I have been underattack ever since I made a comment that contradicted what Alfonzo said, by you and by others. If you cannot see that what you have said is an attack, then you really need to look more close at how you respond to people.

    • jayleigh

      You are incorrigible and that is your downfall. Paul’s actually was really the first patriarch or superintendent of the church – not Peter, but that’s a whole other discussion. He founded churches – at least seven and probably more. He and Peter got into a heated discussion over Peter’s blatant hypocracy at one point, and Peter conceded. Paul was a contemporary of the original 12 disciples – and he had the first-hand experience of being chosen by Jesus Christ after His ascension when Paul was traveling to Damascus to persecute the Christians. Have you ever had an experience with Jesus Christ that brought you to the foot of the cross in abject humiliation over your sins and in gratitude for His atoning work on the cross for YOU? Paul was called by Jesus Himself to be an APOSTLE of his, replacing Judas. Mattathias was chosen by the disciples as one of “the twelve” – they chose him by casting lots, and they “voted him right into oblivion” because there is nothing more ever said about Mattathias, but it is Paul who emerges as the “12th” disciple/apostle called directly by Jesus to BE an Apostle. You are woefully ignorant of Scripture! Oh, and by the way, Mark was not one of the TWELVE! He was a young man who was mentored by both John and by Paul and probably Timothy. He knew the disciples and it was from them he learned the story of Jesus earthly ministry and wrote what we call the Gospel of Mark. But, he was NOT one of the original twelve!

    • edav38

      Jayleigh that is YOUR “”OPINION””, about Paul being first superintendent of the church, OPINION Does Not Fit when dealing with the bible, except in how YOU relate to it, don’t put YOUR OPINION onto others.

    • Guest

      Christ didn’t give us a treatise on every, single sin that can possibly be committed. He corrected what the Hebrews were doing wrong, certainly, but if they were doing something right, there would have been no need for correction. As Christ Himself said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For
      truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest
      letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from
      the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands
      and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of
      heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called
      great in the kingdom of heaven. For
      I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the
      Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the
      kingdom of heaven.”

      IMO, this is Christ’s way of saying that, He came to demonstrate how we are expected to live our lives. If He never said whether you should take an action or not, why wouldn’t you follow the already established laws of the Jews when you’re questioning what your actions should be? http://six11.wordpress.com/2011/12/15/scripture-and-homosexuality-what-jesus-said-and-did/ Jesus also never said anything about

      Jesus never mentioned idolatry, either, but I think it’s safe to stick with the OT guidelines for that, too.

    • Bev Wafford Morris

      Christ didn’t give us a treatise on every, single sin that can possibly be committed. He
      corrected what the Hebrews were doing wrong, certainly, but if they were doing something right, there would have been no need for correction. As Christ Himself said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For
      I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

      IMO, this is Christ’s way of saying that, He came to demonstrate how we are expected to live our lives. If He never said whether you should take an action or not, why wouldn’t you follow the already established laws of the Jews when you’re questioning what your actions should be? http://six11.wordpress.com/201… Jesus never mentioned idolatry, either, but I think it’s safe to stick with the OT guidelines for that, too.

    • edav38

      Actually, yes He did Bev, it can be found in the books of Matthew, Mark Luke AND John. And since NO ONE is willing to do research for themselves, because they would rather believe as they have been TOLD to believe, i will give you a google search on it

      https://www.google.com/search?q=%22What+one+of+you+asks+it+will+be+given…%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=whatever+you+ask+it+will+be+given+to+you&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial

    • jayleigh

      And you think Google is a better source than what Scripture reveals? You trust “google” above Holy Scripture? uhhhh there’s little hope for you. Have you read the Bible in the original languages? Do you have any historical knowledge of how the Bible was compiled and preserved down through the centuries? Are you aware that the Isaiah texts found in the caves at Qumran vary only a “jot and a tittle” from what we have today? And none of the discrepancies have any theological bearing at all on the texts we have extant today? Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus was his calling as an apostle. So, i think your bombastic attitude comes from depending on google to do Bible research for you when you ought to get an excellent concordance, like Strong’s, for instance, which will give you the original words and then point to the texts where those words are used – and thus, by some exhaustive actually study in the Bible via commentaries written by reliable Bible teachers who have actually studied the original languages, the culture and history of the Bible times, you might actually become as learned in the Scriptures as you believe yourself to be. You’ve been hoodwinked, and your misunderstanding of Scripture is fostering this angry tirade in you.

    • edav38

      Why are you getting down on Google when Google had NOTHING to do with the argument other than to give you the Examples where what I said could be found? That was stupid.

    • Bev Wafford Morris

      But, when I checked your examples, they didn’t check out. Go back and try again. This time, look at what you’re posting before you make assertions that are untrue.

    • Bev Wafford Morris

      Did he also mention bestiality, lol? What you linked me to referred me to Matthew 21:22, “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” I don’t have my doctorate, but since you obviously do, can you enlighten me as to how that refers to idolotry?

    • Kevin

      “Paul’s words” ARE Christ’s words! The New Testament is the New covenant of Grace. Paul was the Holy Spirit’s secretary essentially; Jesus is the author of the entire Bible, not just the red text! Homosexuality was satan’s idea to extinguish godly seed, too. Also, Jesus never talked about embezzlement or bestiality either, so your argument is irrelevant…

    • edav38

      Pauls words are PAULS Words, Christ was not there, YES, he was INSPIRED by Christ, and the Holy Spirit, but Pauls words were PAUL’s Words

    • Kevin

      One either takes the Bible as the complete, perfect and inspired word of God or we don’t. There’s no more point talking about it any further if you don’t. Faith is not based upon FACTS, which are temporal, rather on that which is eternal: Truth. “For the law was given by Moses, but Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ. The Greek translation considers Grace & Truth as 1 word…I pray the Lord will bring you the revelation my friend…

    • edav38

      That is your CHOICE, but that is NOT how God has told us to be.

    • Pastor Bill

      Your confusion lies with not understanding that what the Holy Spirit say’s is what Christ say’s for they are ONE and the same God and cannot be ever at all in disagreement. Jesus is the WORD become flesh He is the Bible and all it’s principles in human form. John 1

    • edav38

      Your confusion lies in Holding yourself Above others. Someone would ONLY put “Pastor” in front of their name in a place like this (whether they are or not), in order to Push some AIRE of Authority. PRIDE is not a good place to be, when Judging someone that you do not know. You DO NOT KNOW what I do or do not know about the Relation of, and within the Trinity, you DO NOT know this, because you have not discussed this with me, you have never discussed anything with me, so because of One Statement, having Never talked to me at any point during your existence, you make a Value Judgement against me, having Nothing to base said judgement upon, other than a statement I made, Not knowing WHY I made it, regardless of what video I was commenting on.
      The Reason that Matthew 7;1-5 was given to us by God, was to Tell us to NOT do what you just did. Do not Judge “ME” without ANY knowledge of me, and you DO NOT have ANY knowledge of me.
      Once you attempt to get that knowledge, which I sincerely Believe you will Never take the time to do, then you can make that Judgement. But making Judgements like that, with NO Knowledge of the person you are judging, is NOT a Judgement, but rather is a form of “Gossip” or “Slander”, BOTH of which are Also Expressly Forbidden in the Bible.
      Hence, why I am Willing to Judge your Use of the word “Pastor” in front of your name on here. I do not believe that you have Any Real Authority, whether the word “Pastor” describes something you do or not.
      I Predict that you Will Not try to find out WHY I said as I did in regard to Alfonzo’s video, just as the others have NOT tried to do, because when a “Christian” (put in quotes on purpose, because NONE of you have responded in a “Christ-Like” manner), Feels like they have been slammed, be it true or not, they “””ALWAYS””” respond with Condemnation, and NEVER have I seen “So-Called” “Christians” Respond otherwise.
      When your First Response is to Judge the commenter, as YOU and all the others have done with me, you Invalidate your Position of authority from the Christian perspective!!!

    • Bryan Lyman

      So why are you judging me as ignorant if you have never met me? Have you ever stopped to think why (as you stated earlier) that you feel like people are ganging up on you? It is because you are abrasive, prideful, judgmental, and a hypocrite in every post you make. You say “pull the beam out of your eye” to us, but you can’t even see straight because you have a 2X4 sticking straight out of your forehead. Stop with all the attacks, you have been revealed for what you are: You are a post troll, you come on just to make controversy and rile people up. If your next post has anything but an apology to all these good people you have besmirched, then we will know to just block your crap and ignore you.

    • edav38

      Go back to your VERY FIRST response to my Post, and SEE who Started attacking Whom, YOU ARE who did. I made a comment, and “””YOU””” Began attacking “ME”, I Will Defend myself against Ignorance at all times.
      Hence, AGAIN what I posted about Judging.
      “I” made a comment TO Alfonzo, YOU Attacked me, and Now YOU think you can say this? Again, what i said about Most Christians who Cannot Stand people who DARE to believe other than they do, and DARE to Think for themselves.
      YOU, Bryan are the Hypocrite here!

    • Bryan Lyman

      Tell me if I am right or wrong here, but you seem to be very fired up about the gospel and you think that we aren’t listening? You seem passionate and you have had a recent epiphany about scripture and you are trying to share it (specifically you seem to reference Matthew 7:1-5 frequently). If I am right, wonderful! I am glad you have had revelation. I will tell you again, I am on your side, there is no need to get up in our faces about it. The spirit will reveal the truth of your words to those who are ready to hear. The verse you reference asks us to inquire of God for answers. I agree. I believe in being kind and loving as Christ taught us. So no more finger pointing. I shouldn’t have called you a hypocrite, I apologize. Okay now, your turn.

    • edav38

      Ok, no more finger pointing at YOU, but,

      Bryan, I didn’t “JUST” have an epiphany, I have been studying this for many years, ever since a good friend was disowned by his family, at age 15, because he came out, and his fathers argument about homosexuality. Granted, I agree with Much of what people say about homosexuality, but tell me, WHO would CHOOSE to be gay? NO ONE, that is whom. You can CHOOSE to believe it is a Choice, if you want, but then that takes you out of the discussion, or at least Blinds you to the whole argument. Did you CHOOSE to be Straight? That is a position that many are unwilling to even consider, people like to SAY, “Of Course I didn’t Choose to be Straight, God made me that way.” But, who would Choose to be ridiculed, Maligned, Slandered and condemned by Society? (And do not say that the Left completely accepts them, because the Right Accepts them Infinitely More than the Left does, the left only USES them. The left are Masters at Using whom they believe will give them power.)
      So, because I knew that no one would CHOOSE it, I had to use Logic, and look further into what the answer was, because at the time there were NO UNBIASED studies on the Science side of it (and to this day there ARE NO Unbiased studies on the topic, and I seriously Doubt there will ever be an UNBIASED scientific study on it). So, to do so, i started studying what was going on in the world when the words in the various books that tackle it. Explaining all of that could take a Book to write, needless to say, I found it to NOT be as grievous as many want to make it out.
      There is a verse, forget at this moment where it is, that states that NO Sin, other than Denile of Christ, is worse than ANY OTHER sin. Thus, EVERYTHING Except for Denying Christ, Can be Forgiven.
      To me, that was ALLLL it took for me to know that the argument against gays is a Waste of Time, but yet it is what the ENTIRE “Christian Community” Chooses to Focus on, and they use it to Condemn others (Condemning someone is the SAME as JUDGING others, in the way Matthew 7:1-5 tells us not to do).

      We Each have enough we need to worry about without worrying about what others are dealing with. NO ONE is Sinless, even though Most Christians like to ACT like they are without sin. Having Grace DOES NOT Remove the Sin, it ONLY give you a way OUT from under that sin, even though the sin is Still There.
      So, Even If, Christ did not come to Remove the Law, but to provide a way out from Under the sin, that includes EVERYONE, Even Homosexuals! The Food and Cleanliness Laws in Leviticus DID NOT GO AWAY, even though we ignore Many of them today. We Eat Pork, we Eat Shell Fish, women Wear Makeup, Men and Women Cut Their Hair. and many Many Many others, Leviticus does NOT ONLY Condemn homosexuality, yet why is it the Christian Community Focuses ONLY on THAT from Leviticus, and IGNORES every Levitate Law that they break Daily, as if they do not have to worry about those sins as well?
      I am an Analyst by Trade, that means I look at EVERYthing from Every Which Way. Because of that, I cannot and will Not condemn Anyone who is homosexual, because since CHRIST Stated that ONLY Denying Christ is a unforgivable sin, that means, that the Christian Community focusing SO MUCH TIME on Homosexuality is a WASTE OF TIME!!!

      And, yes, the GLBT community Does Cause Problems within out political system, but Guess What,….That is the Christian Communities OWN FAULT. No One can Blame the GLBTs for Demanding what the Founding Fathers Promised to ALLLLLLL Citizens. The Founders NEVER SAID “Unless you are Gay”, so, by trying to Exclude them, the Christian Community PICKED A FIGHT, and NOW they are LOSING that fight, of their Own Making.

      This is only part of why I originally said what I did, and part of what I am fighting against.

      But, to be Honest, there is much need to get up in people’s faces about it, when people refuse to listen to LOGIC, sometimes that is the Only way anyone hears you.

    • edav38

      But, Bryan, know this, I never back down when someone comes at me. Sometimes I get it wrong, but I am human, after all. 😉

    • Pastor Bill

      I refer back to my original statement which you do not understand what does a title have to do with the Trinity and the agreement found in the Godhead you are a misguided individual who tries to change the subject by redirection. Your rejection of authority is your first and most important issue made obvious in your reply. You should use your own reply to examine your heart

    • edav38

      1. You are a HUMAN, thus Not deserving of a Title
      2. God is Infinite, deserving of Everything
      When you become Infinite like God, then you can demand a Title.
      There is ONLY ONE Authority, related to religion that I recognize, and that authority was Not Created and IS Eternal. YOU AREN’T HIM

    • But are you not doing the same thing in reverse picking and choosing what rules to follow and what not? Your not God but yet you think you have the right to pick and choose what is or is not a sin? You do realize that train of thought was responsible for murder in the name of Jesus? What you are doing is really irresponsible sure if you want to be for Gay marriage fine but to bend scripture to fit your views is not a good idea no matter where you stand. The only reason why I support it is because under the first Amendment a Church has a right to choose how to run their church even if I disagree with it. I don’t have to go to a Church I disagree with their teaching.

    • edav38

      I am not picking and choosing anything, I am just Not Blinding myself to ALL the Information. The Bible does NOT give ALL the Information, it only gives an Understanding of facts that God did not include, and He did so on purpose. TRUE Believing Cannot come without complete understanding. God Never said to live on Blind Faith, and True Faith cannot come without understanding the Why’s and Wherefore’s, because the Human Mind, as God programmed it, Has to have the Why’s and Wherefore’s to accept Anything.
      So, just because I don’t have BLIND Faith, does NOT mean I am picking and choosing anything, it ONLY says that to one who Keeps their Blinders on and cannot see Truth when it is right in front of their face.

    • Their is logic in those words but Jesus did pick Paul on the road to Damascus and he did preach out against it. Like I said a church under the Constitution has the right to do what ever as long it does not endanger others and the church needs to be more kinder to the gay community but we blind ourselves to what it says in the New Testament under the New covenant it could lead to our down fall. The Israelite turn their back on God and they lost their nation for thousands of years. The Catholics during the dark ages turned their back on God and his word and the church split and millions died. Believe me or not but I think the reason we have our dictator and a bad economy is because a group of people are again turning away from the word of God. Yes God did not want us to be robots but at the same time he does not wants us to ignore the words he put before us. Like I said before Christ calls us to die to ourselves pick up our crosses and follow him to ignore this call is to ignore the very nature of Jesus.

    • edav38

      Paul had much of the type of knowledge that the general populace did NOT have, especially since it was his JOB to Persecute Christians, when the Holy Spirit stopped him on the road to Damascus. I Do Not Agree with much of Pauls suppositions, because not all mesh with the WORDS of Christ (and YES I know that statement WILL create another Firestorm, but before you lash out because of it, Just Remember, your condemnations do Not Hold any Justifiable condemnation, and ONLY God can truly judge me on it, and I WILL have to answer for it ONLY TO GOD, if I am wrong, but that is My RIGHT)
      But I Absolutely Agree that we have the Totalitarian Regime that we have because of a Move Away from God, but that is NOT the Fault, Solely of Homosexuals, and NOT all of that to ANY degree, because you can believe it or not (your unbelief has no bearing on the stability of God’s Kingdom), Homosexuals “”CAN”” be Christians, and Many ARE. But it is the Majority of them, and the Majority of Straights who are Causing the move Away from God (and that Includes a Great Many Conservatives). But, EVEN Christians are to Blame for this. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, ALL at different times, Warned us to NOT take our eyes off of the Government or this WOULD happen, and we ARE ALL TO BLAME for it happening, there is NOT ONE who is not to blame for it. B Franklin told us over and over and over to NEVER Trust your government or this would happen.

    • First I would like to say I don’t think it is just the homosexuals fault I think it is everyone’s fault including myself Should of been more clear on that and Apologize for being so unclear and is my fault for the misunderstanding. Can see we agree on that and that big government sucks. I say we can just agree to disagree on the rest you seem like a nice person no matter if I disagree with your Biblical views and really don’t want to burn any bridges on interpretation on scriptures for that is just stupid to do so.

    • Pastor Bill

      Titles are not a matter of one deserving it or not Edav Mr. and Mrs. are titles they simply distinguish people according to there position and responsibility in life I.E. Dr. Senator, President, R.N, Officer, Principle and so on You are just a controversial man and by reading many of your various reply’s to people {Forgive me for not using Humans} you may not be Born Again which is what has to happen to be a Christian {John 3:3} I do not interact with disrespectful young men like yourself who are not teachable, but think they know it all. You have an air of pride and ignorance in you that comes out in your comments to others, and I sense that you will learn many lessons of life the hard way. This is goodbye edav don’t bother to reply. Though I already know this is impossible for you being so full of yourself. I never met a person who fit this Proverb until I encountered you on this site……………… Proverbs 18:6-7
      A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. A fool’s mouth [is] his destruction, and his lips [are] the snare of his soul. (KJV) …………….Goodbye

    • edav38

      .

    • jayleigh

      uh – yep, He did – HE said “He came to Fulfill the LAW – the law, decalogue, 10-Commandments, does forbid homosexuality. So, you are mistaken. If he did not intend that His “fulfillment” of the Law referred to ALL of the law, He would have said, “Except for homosexuality. I’ve changed my mind about that. It’s ok, guys; I really do understand that a loving relationship is good, no matter how it is achieved.” He didn’t specifically mention pedophilia either, but does that mean He condoned it? Use your sense of reason – when He said He came to fulfill the law, the key word is “fulfill” not “do away with”.

  • CL53

    edav38 — Christ said that He came to uphold the Law & the Prophets, i.e. Old Testament. The Pentateuch which is the first five books of the Old Testament, has plenty to say about the abomination of homosexuality. One other point, Paul was a Jew among Jews, a Pharisee of the Pharisees; in other words he thoroughly knew the Law and commandments of God. Keeping in mind that there was no New Testament and that those who wrote the N.T. cannon had no other guide than the God breathed and inspired Old Testament, as well as the leading of the Holy Spirit, there would have been a general consensus in the early church that Christ, who is the Word made flesh, opposed homosexuality and died for that sin as well as all other other sins. He gave His life to redeem us from SIN; the fallen nature of every man born since Adam. And so the only instructions that these early church fathers imposed on the new gentile believers as discussed in the book of Acts is that they keep themselves from fornication (which includes all sex outside of marriage) and that they keep themselves from the worship of idols. In other words, that they remain pure in deed and thought, that they obey the Scriptures, which is what Christ admonished when dealing with any sinner. He says the same thing today to the repentant sinner that He said when He walked the earth. Go and sin no more.

  • Bro-In-Christ

    So, edav38, if I say that, “sex between two men is a sin”, have I not said that homosexuality is a sin? Do you use concordance in your study of Scripture? If not, try it. In warning about the fate of unrepentant cities, Jesus said, “If the miracles that were performed in you (Capernaum) had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day” (Matthew 11:23), making DIRECT reference to Genesis 19:4-5
    “Before they had gone to bed, ALL the men from EVERY part of the city of Sodom; both young and old, surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

    edav38 my brother/sister, if you accept homosexuality, you must also accept what was always right behind it: bi-sexuality, transexuality, transvestism and transgenderism. And guess what is lined up right behind these? Pedophilia and bestiality. Don’t believe me? Do some social science research and pay attention to what the Secular-Progressives are doing through amoral social engineering and also what the Liberal “restorative justice” zealots are doing from their judicial benches.

    • dougpow

      EXCELLENT!

    • Bro-In-Christ

      Oh, and edav38, we all know what happened to Sodom, don’t we…

    • edav38

      Don’t get started on Sodom, other Books of the Old Testament WILL disagree with you

    • SARAH MAX

      i guess I’m coming a bit late to this discussion, so u may not care to converse with me about this issue…but I’d be happy to listen to your proofs edave…I’m curious here tho.. what do you mean about “…Sodom, other books of the Old Test. WILL disagree with you…” in your note to Bro InChrist?? Feel free to respond, as I’m curious what u consider about the Old Test, disagreeing with what Bro said.. I read all that I could of what he has responded to on this page.. Altho u may not respond to my query, I do hope you get the TRUE answers that u need for your faith.& for your faith to grow.. I came to God with a fairly ‘blind’ faith, but this many yrs later, (39) I feel I have a very powerful faith, compared to back then, as it is now both child-like & a faith based on much knowledge & Life experience, & on strong Biblical studies thru both the Hebrew & Greek language studies.. Of course I hope that I continue to grow stronger & wiser until my death, as we all should never stop learning from the Master.. ~sarah

    • edav38

      Sarah, EVERYONE ALWAYS Says it was Only Homosexuality, and there is an argument that could be made for that, but it was NOT Homosexuality, per se, as it was forced sex (of ANY KIND), though there WERE many reasons why Sodom, Gomorrah and the 3 other cities in the region were destroyed (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Bela were the “5” cities of the Valley of Siddim that were Destroyed by Yaweh at the same time), IF it was Homosexual Sex that the crowd was after, then there is NO WAY that Lot would have THOUGHT that his two Daughters would have sufficed, unless Lot was a TOTAL MORON…Gay Men DO NOT WANT WOMEN FOR ANY REASON, That is ONE way to PROVE it had NOTHING to do with Homosexuality, but rather Non-Consensual sex. But since Those who Argue for “Homosexuality” being the Root Cause have NO CONCEPT if the Term “Common Sense” and Wouldn’t know it if it slapped them in the face, (there are a whole litnay of reasons why Sodom chose “sex” as they action that night, none of them Just, but reasons non-the-less), so we look elsewhere to find out what the REASON was:

      Ezekiel 16:46-50

      New International Version (NIV)
      46 Your older sister
      was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your
      younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was
      Sodom. 47 You not only followed their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they. 48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. 49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

      Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5
      the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of
      their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the
      Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they
      had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with
      others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise
      them for their arrogance…
      (intercourse in this passage is NOT regarding sex, it is closer to “interaction”)

      Today, San Francisco has the reputation for being the “gayest” city in
      the world. Yet even in San Francisco, gay men constitute far less than
      half the total male population. If the Scripture text had told us that
      “certain men of Sodom” or even “many men of Sodom” gathered at the door,
      we might then surmise that the men at the door could have been
      motivated by homosexual desire. But the text says “both young and old,
      all the people to the last man” gathered at the door. To suggest that
      every man and boy in Sodom was homosexual is simply not credible. Any
      reasonable interpretation of the story must account for the fact that
      all the males of Sodom (both homosexual and heterosexual), and perhaps
      even the women, participated in this attack. Something other than
      homosexual desire has to have been at work here.

      But the last I will say on this is read what is in these two sites,

      http://jewishchristiangay.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/genesis-19-what-the-bible-really-says-were-the-sins-of-sodom/

      http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/sodom_and_gomorrah.html

      But, the only thing that matters, is you are going to Believe as you CHOOSE to believe, even when the Bible tells you otherwise, Just as ALL Humans do. If you WANT to find a cause for something, or a condemnation for something, you WILL Find it, even when you have to make It Up, in order to Justify what you “Detest”, just as ALL Humans have done since we were Created by God. Just as Cain found a justification, IN HIS OWN MIND, for killing Able, you Will Continue to find a Justification, even in your Own mind, for condemnation of homosexuals.

      But, no where in the ancient Jewish Texts do you find the sole reason for the destruction of the 5 cities of the of the Valley of Siddim as Homosexuality, you DO find Rape as ONE of the root causes, but not homosexuality as a whole.

    • jayleigh

      He isn’t “accepting” homosexuality – but Zoe can’t SAVE anyone! God allows people freedom of choice to live in rejection of HIs laws – and that is what Zoe is saying. He is not saying we should allow gay marriage – what he IS saying is that sin is sin and “gay” sin is no greater sin than the sin of lying, theft, or murder. i have “gay” friends who know exactly how i feel about the lifestyle they live and we are able to dialogue about it, and they know they are in my daily prayers for salvation and a rejection of the lifestyle they live. But, for me to “damn” them (which is God’s province and NOT mine) would close dialogue and witness. THAT is what Zoe is saying. He is not saying we should not have laws that protect heterosexual marriage. He is not saying that he is in favor of gay marriage; he is saying this is a fallen world and while we must stand against evil, we also must keep the doors of communication open and that doesn’t happen with ‘gay-bashing’ tactics.

    • Bro-In-Christ

      Yo, jayleigh, chill. The only point I was addressing from edav38 was his comment in regards to Jesus never mentioning homosexuality, specifically, which gives a pass to those who DO accept it. Jesus DID make a major reference to it as I pointed out. Yet you choose to preach to me, the choir, and accuse/judge me of damning and gay-bashing? My second point was one of social commentary. You care to deny any of what I put forth?

    • jayleigh

      Really, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality? You are wrong about that. He said He came not to destroy the LAW, but to fulfill it. The Levitical Law was given directly by God – it wasn’t a consensus of opinion decision by those poor wandering Jews. The part of “the law” that ended with Jesus sacrifice on the cross was the ceremonial law because He fulfilled it in His sacrificial death. But, He said that not one “jot or tittle” of the law (meaning the laws that govern human behavior apart from ceremony), were still in effect. Consequently, the LAW regarding murder, stealing, sexual conduct, were NOT tossed on the trash heap of time. Your theology is wonky, but i suspect you have read Scripture only for edification and not for clarification of God’s rule of life. You seem to like Grace, but you don’t seem to be too fond of Judgment. Both are indeed still in force. Children indeed are often given “grace” by their parents, but they don’t escape “judgment” by them for the wrongs they do. So it is with God. He has provided a way of escape via the atonement of Jesus, but those who continue on in their own way will still be disciplined by a loving God. i loved my children deeply, but part of loving them meant discipline, teaching, training, and yes, even “judgment” on inappropriate behavior It wouldn’t have been “love” if i’d allowed them to do things that harmed themselves or others. God still gives us a choice, but we often reap the consequences of those choices. When my son was very small, he would say, “I know, Mom; it’s just the consequences of my actions.” The consequences of homosexuality have been dire for that population. It does NOT give me “satisfaction” to know the ravages of AIDS that plundered the population in the late 1970s and early 1980s. But, there ARE natural consequences to behavior that is contrary to nature. If you put a rope around your neck and tie it to the limb of a tree and jump off – there will be irrevocable consequences. God didn’t give “LAW” to harm us, but to protect us! He doesn’t hate the homosexual – and those who say He does do not know anything about God. But, Jesus did NOT abolish the totality of “the law” – only the ceremonial law!

  • Pastor Bill

    Hey Zoe great insight in your video. I only wish you chose a better ending, that Freudian slip was inconsistent and not unnecessary. No love loss Zoe you have a gift for keeping it real.

  • american1st

    Sure a bible thumping weak minded jim jones wannabee like u would claim Im the one who judges BUT THIS ALL BEGAN because u FIRST JUDGED GAY PEOPLE & PROCLAIMED to all ur sheep who listen to u how godly & inspired u are!

    U BEGAN THIS BY JUDGING GAY PEOPLE THEN TELLING THE WORLD HOW SMART U ARE BECAUSE OF A BOOK TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH BY 47 MEN IN 1604. BUT DO U CARE THEY WERE INSTRUCTED UNDER THREAT OF BEHEADING TO MAKE SURE THEIR VERSION CONFORMED TO THE WISHES OF KING JAMES?

    Do u brilliant Bible thumpers even know how many english translations & versions there is of ur Bible? The King James translation WAS THE THIRD ENGLISH TRANSLATION THAT WAS APPROVED BY THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND! IF IT WAS INSPIRED BY GOD WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE 1ST TRANSLATION?

    THERE WAS EVEN OTHER ENGLISH TRANSLATED VERSIONS SOME MUCH EARLIER THAN THE 1604 – 1611 KING JAMES VERSION!

    The Wycliffe translation was the first complete English translation of the Christian Bible in the 15th century. WAS THAT NOT GODLY INSPIRED & IF SO WHY DID ALL CHRISTIANS NOT ACCEPT IT?

    That was banned in 1409 & the Tyndale translation (called the great bible) was used, then the King henry version, then the queen mary version (called geneva version) took them back to a Catholic version. in 1553 then queen elizabeth & the Douay–Rheims New Testament of 1582! WERE ALL THESE ENGLISH TRANSLATED VERSIONS OF UR BIBLE NOT GODLY INSPIRED AS WELL?

    OUR BIBLE IS THE HISTORY OF OUR LORD & SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, IT WAS WRITTEN & RE WRITTEN BY ZEALOTS LIKE YOU UNTIL IT CONFORMED TO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY!
    JESUS IS IN THE HEARTS OF ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM & HE WILL DECIDE WHO IS A GOOD & DECENT HUMAN & WHO IS A NASTY RABBLE ROWSING TROUBLE MAKER LIKE YOU WHO TRIES TO CONDEMM OTHER HUMANS THAT YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH!
    I TRULY PITY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO PLACE YOURSELF NEXT TO GOD SO YOU CAN JUDGE OTHERS BASED ON WHAT YOU THINK THE BIBLE SAYS.
    JESUS WILL JUDGE US WHEN WE DIE, YOU WANT TO JUDGE OTHERS WHILE WE LIVE, SHOW ME WHERE JESUS GIVES YOU INSTRUCTIONS TO JUDGE OTHER CHILDREN OF GOD!

    • Their is so many things wrong with this statement I can write a book on your stupidity. And it is not my fault your a hypocrite. I cannot help the fact you do not practice what you preach.

    • edav38

      Using “GOD” as an exclamation, is a SERIOUS “Wrong”, that you Began with, Sam. DO NOT TAKE THE LORDS NAME IS VAIN

    • You are right I can’t believe I missed that. I am changing it right now thanks for the correction.

    • edav38

      So, it is OK for YOU to take the Lords name in Vain, As Long as you Feel you are doing so for a good cause?
      A Bit of a Shaky stance to take.

    • Did you even read what I said your about as bad as the guy I was talking to no worse because you are all over the place.

    • edav38

      I took what you said as being sarcastic, because People who “Shoot first and ask questions later”, are usually Sarcastic when someone calls them on their own issues. Do not expect me to apologize, after the way the SLEW of you have treated me for DARING to Disagree with Alfonzo. I may agree with him on a Great many things, but this I do not, and that DOES NOT MEAN I needed to be treated as I have been, so NO, No apology for mistaking what you said for sarcasm

    • I treat him like that because he treats other like that you on the other hand would never treat you like that. I may disagree but I can respect where you are coming from. Like I said one of my friends happens to be gay nicest guy I he even tried to pick me up when he saw me walking on the side of the road. I never once came after you it was this guy the bully the guy judging others that he did not know and was the only one I had a beef with. Sometimes I feel we Christians are to judgmental not that we should hide the truth but do so in a loving manner. I been an atheist most of my life and live as a devil and if I where to tell everyone what I used to do and the people I used to hang out with they would wonder why I am not in prison I drank I cursed god and everyone that followed him and hated every human being people put me up as a lost cause and I am glad I did not run into the likes of Americanfirst or most likely I would still be in that dark place. So yes I know what is like to have a hoard of “Christians” come after you I know what it is like to think I could not change no matter how much I wanted to. I was dead inside and I thank God I meet a true disciple of Christ to tell me the truth and lead me out of the dark. Now I am not being a jerk here I will treat you with respect if you give me the same and want an honest answer from you and don’t based this answer on how you feel about gay marriage and you will see something. Now if you saw a family member heading to their deaths would you sit their and egg them on telling them their is nothing wrong with that path?

    • ScienceWorksBest

      Look out! Your celestial Big Brother is Watching!

    • edav38

      Uh,….DUH!!! Probably the BIGGEST “”DUH”” in the History of the Universe…but, then, it is NOT “Big Brother”, it is in Actuality, “Big Pappa”!!!!!

    • Sorry about that. I see you meet my atheist stalker. Why he feels the need to chase me around all of a sudden is really just creepy.

    • I decided to come back and poke holes in your crazy rant. There are many reason why their is no logic in that rant but here are my top five.
      1 the reason why the needed so many to translate is because it would take one person 20 years to do so. In so homophobic to want to make the processes faster.
      2 Do you bigot realize that people where being put to death for translating the Bible into other languages besides Latin and that is why their where so many back then? I know history is homophobic.
      3 you see moron with little understanding of history you see owning the Wycliffe translation and be caught with meant being condemn to hell and burnt at the stake by the Catholic Church like the guy who wrote the the thing. Yah the last time I checked death by burning to death is still unpopular in the polls. In know that is homophobic not wanting to die a horrible death at the hands of big government.
      4 Yes because a bunch of inbreed royals that think of themselves as gods would even know how to read let alone make rational thoughts and people never change their minds. I know it is homopbic not being a mindless robot.

      5 Yes because we want to take Jesus and take his power even tho you ignore facts that not only the words that his followers where reading are no different from the words in today Bible and can be proven by archaeology But Paul who wrote Romans 1 was also hand picked by Jesus after he left the Earth and even subjected in his Writing that the where Gay people able to put being gay aside. But I know fact reason and logic are all homophobic.

    • edav38

      Where do you get this “Jim Jones wannabe” crap from? Me Thinks Thou Dost protest TOO MUCH

  • jayleigh

    Uhhhh American1st, the KJV is NOT the only version that Christians accept! i have in my library a Moffett’s Translation, a Wycliff and several others. i also have my Greek New Testament and my Hebrew Old Testament, both of which i can read because i’ve studied both Hebrew and Greek. So, i’m not sure what you are bellyachin’ about – the KJV was translated from the original languages, just as the Wycliff translation was. The problem with both of those is the archaic language that causes a problem. That is why new translations come out to clarify the meaning of the words. When new translations come out, they are derived from the original languages, or else it is clearly stated that it is a “paraphrase” and NOT a translation. Words change meaning over the course of centuries – for instance, the KJV says that the head of John the Baptist was brought in on a “silver charger,” which meant platter back in the 1600s. However, it could also mean a knight’s battle horse! Now, you tell me, on which was the head of John the Baptist presentd to the king – a platter or mounted on a horse? The Wycliff translation also has problems with word meaning changes, as does a very excellent translation known as the Geneva translation. So, enjoy your Wycliff translation if you want – there’s no sin or “wrongness” in how you read the Word, as long as you know the Living Word about whom the Bible speaks from beginning to end. But, you sound as though you are just an angry, theocrat who has very little in the way of ability to “rightly divide the Word” as the Bible instructs. Alfonzo isn’t trying to gain disciples for himself – he is trying to bring reason and sanity to a world in which the liberals attempt to demonize conservatives, especially conservative Christians. Evidently you missed the point. There was NO comment by Alfonzo about Bible translations; but interpretation by liberals and the lies they tell about what Jesus taught or didn’t teach, what He said, or didn’t say. And yet, the Bible itself says that the words in it were “God-breathed” or Inspired and “written” by God who moved through Holy men to write as they were instructed by HIM! You are grossly mistaken about how the KJV came to be, but aside from whether it was “authorized” by King James or not, the translators used the original languages to do the translation. The reason for the translation was so that the common people would be able to read it for themselves, and with the coming of the Guttenberg press, that made it possible for even the common person to own at least portions of Holy Scripture if not the whole Bible. So, what is your real beef? Or do you just spout to make noise on the blog? eh?

    • And then their is that. Good post.

    • edav38

      I see you Believe everything you are TOLD to Believe, what a Good Little SHEEP you are.

  • Brenda Watson Whittenberg

    Once again Zo says it like it really is and does it very well!
    I nominate Alphonso Rachel to be the GOP Marketing Leader. He is On-Target with what Conservative Republican’s want for their party and conveys it in a manner an language that can reach those age 18 to 65. We must win the next election with new upcoming conservatives and vote out all the RINO’s.

  • Zo, from a former Liberal who finally saw the light about the true demeanor of the lefties and where my beliefs fit in better then they ever did as a liberal I want to thank you sir for your insight and showing me that the lies I was warned about by my conservative friends about glorious leader (oblammer) were not propaganda sold by the conservative party. And the Tea Party/conservative Christians racist group full of pissed off white dudes, but really just the average Joe of more then one color who is tired of being lied to and feel we need to stand up for what is right. No matter it be over the 1st, 2nd, or any other amendment, that freedom is freedom. If I knew what I knew now I would have walked away from those hypocrites a very long time ago and my vote would have NOT gone to what I thought was the best choice to run this Republic. A complete 180 degree from what I thought was the truth. After being in more then one FB group that was predominantly dem and being ganged up on once they all found out my beliefs on God and the second amendment and seeing the amazing amount of “open-minded bleeding hearts” towards others with slightly different views of the world…yeah, see ya! Love the website and your video blogs have an awesome day and I look forward to more of your “right wing rants”!

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